10:21 p.m.
Have we all voted??
http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/corp/linux?s=corp
Stuart
Top-tech-command-line-qualified-free-win$ux-luser.
10:43 p.m.
On 14/03/07, stuart bell <sailing1(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Have we all voted??
http://www.dell.com/content/topics/global.aspx/corp/linux?s=corp
Stuart
Nope. I'm not likely to be in the market to buy one so I can't really
vote in it. I don't like to try to sway online votes like this as
I've seen it done so often and it negates everything.
Just me :-)
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Kevan Farmer
Linux user #373362
Staffordshire
7:25 a.m.
On 14/03/07, Kevanf1 <kevanf1(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Nope. I'm not likely to be in the market to buy one so I
can't really
vote in it. I don't like to try to sway online votes like this as
I've seen it done so often and it negates everything.
Do you know I have to smile at this, everyone exponent of the minimal
list of distro's on this survey is jumping on the band wagon and
regaling, hopefully, their blog readers to "Hurry up and vote" it
strikes me that the vast majority is missing the point or at least not
understanding why or what they are voting for.
1. Most are voting because they want their distro to be chosen so
whats the net value to a user if they don't want or use, lets say,
Ubuntu? none whatsoever.
2. Will it make more people switch or buy Linux based machines just
because Dell are doing them? I doubt it very much.
3. Is Dell recording the IP addresses of votes cast? Well they must be
otherwise whats the point? how do you qualify the result without
evidence that some twonk in an office in Ireland didn't just make it
all up.
4. If they are recording IP's what are they going to do with that
info? I wonder if mailshots from Dell will start dropping into
inboxes?
5. Most, but certainly not all, of the Linux users I have met or
talked too are either out of work or not in a position to make
hardware purchases so why are they voting?
I could go on but its just dull what I will say is this, wouldn't it
be better if Dell just sold the bloody stuff bare so you can stick on
what you want? that would make the kit even cheaper!
Remember people these guys don't care about you or your community they
want to sell kit! and if that means sticking Red Hat on a laptop will
increase unit revenue then so be it. All Dell are really doing is a
market survey to see if there is a potential growth market I'm a sales
manager its what I'd do!
Send me a link for putting Linux in schools and university's or free
Linux training courses for the work place and I'll gladly vote or sign
up.
--
Dick Turpin
"At theses prices I'm mugging myself!"
8:40 a.m.
On Thu, Mar 15, 2007 at 07:25:16AM +0000, Dick Turpin wrote:
1. Most are voting because they want their distro to be chosen so
whats the net value to a user if they don't want or use, lets say,
Ubuntu? none whatsoever.
Not true. Whatever distro they choose will be good for every other distro in
some way. If Dell choose one distro and make sure all their hardware works
on that distro, then chances are it will work on any other distro (given a
recent/similar kernel).
Its the same with vendors such as LinuxEmporium. You can buy a laptop from
them pre-installed with a distro of your choice, confident that if you wipe
it and put another distro on chances are high that it will work.
If you bought a vista laptop there is no guarantee that it will work with
Linux at all.
2. Will it make more people switch or buy Linux based machines just
because Dell are doing them? I doubt it very much.
It raises awareness though, most of joe public don't know what Linux is, or
even that there could be a choice of OS on their computer. They really
believe that there is only one "option" and that is to run whatever version
of Windows the box is supplied with.
If they have a little drop down box on the "configure my dell" screen which
offers linux, you're right, they may well not choose it, but at least they
have the choice and are made aware that there is an option available. IMO
that's a good thing in itself.
3. Is Dell recording the IP addresses of votes cast? Well they must
be
otherwise whats the point? how do you qualify the result without
evidence that some twonk in an office in Ireland didn't just make it
all up.
How about not focussing on the technical ins and outs of how they conduct
the survey/poll and take it for what it is. It's one of the worlds largest
hardware companies taking an opportunity to listen to us.
5. Most, but certainly not all, of the Linux users I have met or
talked too are either out of work or not in a position to make
hardware purchases so why are they voting?
I don't know anyone who uses Linux who is out of work. All of them are
either gainfully employed, students or retired. Granted there may well be
people on this list who are unemployed, but that's not within my social
circle of friends/family.
I could go on but its just dull what I will say is this, wouldn't
it
be better if Dell just sold the bloody stuff bare so you can stick on
what you want? that would make the kit even cheaper!
This wont help. You might buy a device and find that you need some binary
blob to make it work, or worse, that the machine has no linux support at all
because in order to cut costs they used some manky chipset which only has
windows drivers.
Offering Linux is great, it means they *have* to have hardware support. Dell
aren't going to be so stupid as to offer a laptop which has Linux
pre-installed but has half the hardware broken/crippled because they haven't
sorted Linux device drivers or application support.
This might also encourage Dell to stop being so stupid with their ACPI
support. There are quite a few features on Dells that aren't exposed through
ACPI (my laptop has some) and so Linux is unable to control or read from
those devices.
Remember people these guys don't care about you or your community
they
want to sell kit! and if that means sticking Red Hat on a laptop will
increase unit revenue then so be it. All Dell are really doing is a
market survey to see if there is a potential growth market I'm a sales
manager its what I'd do!
This is somewhat inaccurate. They aren't after our money. We (as geeks)
generally don't account for many sales at Dell. They make the vast majority
of their money from the great unwashed public who see a Dell ad in the paper
or online and click through to buy. THEY are the people who need to be
offered Linux as an option, for us it's a nice to have, for them it is
essential for all our benefit.
Send me a link for putting Linux in schools and university's or
free
Linux training courses for the work place and I'll gladly vote or sign
up.
Schools buy Dell kit too. Imagine a school buying rooms of Dell PCs
pre-installed with Linux.
Cheers,
Al.
10:06 a.m.
On 15/03/07, Alan Pope <alan(a)popey.com> wrote:
Not true. Whatever distro they choose will be good for every other
distro in
some way. If Dell choose one distro and make sure all their hardware works
on that distro, then chances are it will work on any other distro (given a
recent/similar kernel).
Sorry Alan but thats cods wallop Dell have been selling servers with
Linux pre-installed for donkeys yonks the new kid on the block for
Dell is Ubuntu which is inherently problematic with certain hardware
so while I agree this would be good for Ubuntu users, saving them the
grief of writing their own drivers, theres nothing new here really
other than pre-install on base units and Laptops which at the moment
they don't do.
Its the same with vendors such as LinuxEmporium. You can buy a laptop
from
them pre-installed with a distro of your choice, confident that if you wipe
it and put another distro on chances are high that it will work.
So my point still stands whats new why are we voting?
If you bought a vista laptop there is no guarantee that it will work
with
Linux at all.
Yep your right.
It raises awareness though, most of joe public don't know what
Linux is, or
even that there could be a choice of OS on their computer. They really
believe that there is only one "option" and that is to run whatever version
of Windows the box is supplied with.
Mmm, I have to say I disagree, I'd love too see a survey report on the
types of purchases made I'm willing to bet a good 95% are MS based I
doubt very much that a potential MS purchaser is gonna say "Ooh hang
on that Dell-Ubuntu box is £80.00 cheaper I think I'll have that
instead" now if your going to say "Ah but Pete if they are looking for
a Linux machine then they can get it from Dell now" most Linux users
know or will be advised to go to Dell anyway, I have to say Dell is
always my first choice for Linux installs I've never had any problems
with installs on their kit although in respect of their pricing and
business practices (With my IT sales hat on) I really dislike them
they are killing us.
If they have a little drop down box on the "configure my
dell" screen which
offers linux, you're right, they may well not choose it, but at least they
have the choice and are made aware that there is an option available. IMO
that's a good thing in itself.
Thing is Alan the choice is already there, on the Dell site, true you
have to rummage around to find it but I assure you it is there. Having
said that and I know it looks like I'm anti all of this I agree with
you any form of advertising for 'Linux' is a good thing however what
really gets my hackles up is the clever way Linux-Distro supporters
are surreptitiously being played off one another for the benefit of
Dell.
Ask yourself why the survey is not more transparent with respect of OS
what I mean is surely it should be asking "Do you want Linux
pre-installed? such as blah blah blah" not "Choose which one should go
on our machines".
See for me Linux is about choice I don't want there to be only one, be
that RH, Ubuntu, Suse etc and the survey, as I read it, asks you to
choose a release over another one.
How about not focussing on the technical ins and outs of how they
conduct
the survey/poll and take it for what it is. It's one of the worlds largest
hardware companies taking an opportunity to listen to us.
They're not! they are asking you which one you want them to sell you!
I don't know anyone who uses Linux who is out of work. All of
them are
either gainfully employed, students or retired. Granted there may well be
people on this list who are unemployed, but that's not within my social
circle of friends/family.
Hey that was not a derogatory statement with regards unemployment, I'm
on loads of lists I choose not to post to most of them. The point I
was making is I have seen it over and over again where individuals do
not have two halfpenny's to rub together so will not be buying a Dell
machine anytime soon.
This wont help. You might buy a device and find that you need some
binary
blob to make it work, or worse, that the machine has no linux support at all
because in order to cut costs they used some manky chipset which only has
windows drivers.
But thats exactly what they do? Here at work We/I am A Dell reseller
we sell tonnes of them however the Dell engineer (We are not supposed
to fix them) practically lives here, he walks in says hello and walks
straight out to our workshop! Oh and thats mostly brand new , just
delivered, machines by the way.
<snip>
This is somewhat inaccurate. They aren't after our money. We (as
geeks)
generally don't account for many sales at Dell. They make the vast majority
of their money from the great unwashed public who see a Dell ad in the paper
or online and click through to buy. THEY are the people who need to be
offered Linux as an option, for us it's a nice to have, for them it is
essential for all our benefit.
I wouldn't had said it was inaccurate, true you are correct that their
biggest market is the home user but this is a business we are talking
about who offer predominantly proprietory Linux releases yes there is
a knock on effect that you could wipe it and stick on opensuse instead
of sled but then whats the point of that you might as well buy an MS
machine and dual boot.
Schools buy Dell kit too. Imagine a school buying rooms of Dell PCs
pre-installed with Linux.
But Alan that will NOT happen not in the way you think can you imagine
the IT teacher of a state run school putting a request in to central
purchasing for a Dell machine that has no MS on it? The 'Red Tape'
boys will have a fit suppose that IT guy leaves? what guarantee do
they have of getting another teacher who knows Linux? so that kit will
sit in the corner because the teacher cant use it and sure as eggs are
eggs he is not gonna let students use it and show him or her up after
all THEY are there to teach not learn.
I suppose I've blotted my copy book with you know? I'm afraid I tend
to defend my opinions otherwise whats the point of saying something.
--
Dick Turpin
"At theses prices I'm mugging myself!"
12:29 p.m.
On Thu, Mar 15, 2007 at 10:06:03AM +0000, Dick Turpin wrote:
On 15/03/07, Alan Pope <alan(a)popey.com> wrote:
>Not true. Whatever distro they choose will be good for every other distro
>in
>some way. If Dell choose one distro and make sure all their hardware
works
>on that distro, then chances are it will work on any other distro
(given
a
>recent/similar kernel).
Sorry Alan but thats cods wallop Dell have been selling servers with
Linux pre-installed for donkeys yonks the new kid on the block for
Dell is Ubuntu which is inherently problematic with certain hardware
so while I agree this would be good for Ubuntu users, saving them the
grief of writing their own drivers, theres nothing new here really
other than pre-install on base units and Laptops which at the moment
they don't do.
As a company selling laptops and desktops to the great unwashed they flat
out can't just install linux, and if the hardware doesn't work, say "tough
shit" to the customers. For servers running linux the userbase is inherently
technical. The desktop market is utterly different, fully of computer noobs
who couldn't compile a cup of tea let alone a kernel.
These people need support. They can't be expected to do things on their own.
Thus Dell will have to provide some kind of support model, whether that is
community based or commercial or a blend of the two.
So my argument is that for the desktop noob user they need to have some
minimal level of hardware support for the Linux kernel. I don't see that
this can be argued with. If they don't then they will fail.
>Its the same with vendors such as LinuxEmporium. You can buy a
laptop
from
>them pre-installed with a distro of your choice, confident that
if you
wipe
>it and put another distro on chances are high that it will work.
So my point still stands whats new why are we voting?
In the commercial world numbers matter. If "we" as a community of Linux
users and activists don't let the commerical entities know that we are out
here, and that we might buy their kit if it supported the software we want
to run then they might be more inclined to listen.
Note there are other companies who support Linux in their hardware via
either open or closed software, companies such as AMD, Intel, NVidia, IBM
and so on. Dell could join this group, and are more likely to if they hear
our voices.
>It raises awareness though, most of joe public don't know
what Linux is,
or
>even that there could be a choice of OS on their computer. They
really
>believe that there is only one "option" and that is to run whatever
version
>of Windows the box is supplied with.
Mmm, I have to say I disagree, I'd love too see a survey report on the
types of purchases made I'm willing to bet a good 95% are MS based I
doubt very much that a potential MS purchaser is gonna say "Ooh hang
on that Dell-Ubuntu box is £80.00 cheaper I think I'll have that
instead" now if your going to say "Ah but Pete if they are looking for
a Linux machine then they can get it from Dell now" most Linux users
know or will be advised to go to Dell anyway, I have to say Dell is
always my first choice for Linux installs I've never had any problems
with installs on their kit although in respect of their pricing and
business practices (With my IT sales hat on) I really dislike them
they are killing us.
You have misunderstood or misrepresented what I said. I said "It raises
awareness", you said " I doubt very much that a potential MS purchaser is
gonna say "Ooh hang on that Dell-Ubuntu box is £80.00 cheaper I think I'll
have that instead"".
These are different points.
Raising awareness is one thing. Getting them to part with cash is a
completely different game.
>If they have a little drop down box on the "configure my
dell" screen
which
>offers linux, you're right, they may well not choose it, but
at least
they
>have the choice and are made aware that there is an option
available. IMO
>that's a good thing in itself.
Thing is Alan the choice is already there, on the Dell site, true you
Show me the link where I can buy a Dell laptop of my choice with Ubuntu
pre-installed. However deep you go I seriously doubt you will find it. Feel
free to try though.
have to rummage around to find it but I assure you it is there.
Having
said that and I know it looks like I'm anti all of this I agree with
you any form of advertising for 'Linux' is a good thing however what
really gets my hackles up is the clever way Linux-Distro supporters
are surreptitiously being played off one another for the benefit of
Dell.
That's business. The Linux distro vendors in question - Canonical, RedHat,
Novell are commercial entities who make money making support, and compete
with eachother directly already. All Dell are doing is leveraging their
position to identify partner(s) with which to provide support. This is not
news, this happens all the time.
Ask yourself why the survey is not more transparent with respect of
OS
what I mean is surely it should be asking "Do you want Linux
pre-installed? such as blah blah blah" not "Choose which one should go
on our machines".
Ok, imagine they supported only one distro. Imagine the support headaches
that would give them, all those hardware devices they have to make sure
works, all the software that comes pre-installed. Now multiply that by all
the distro vendors. Yeah, some bits will be the same, but there are
considerable differences between different distros all running varying
kernel releases, with or without binary blobs, with or without firmware. By
April this year Ubuntu alone will have three separate versions of their
product available and supported (by Canonical commercially and/or Ubuntu in
the community).
Given the low margins you speak of on Dell hardware, how can Dell possibly
offer every distro. They simply *have* to reduce the list down.
See for me Linux is about choice I don't want there to be only
one, be
that RH, Ubuntu, Suse etc and the survey, as I read it, asks you to
choose a release over another one.
But you are a geek. You are not joe user. All the geeks on this list (and
every other LUG that is currently discussing this) need to snap the fuck out
of their "what about me!?" whining state and think about everyone else for
once. Everyone else does NOT want massive choice. They can't cope with
choice. We see it all the time when people bitch on about having countless
music players in Linux - "I just want the best one that works".
>How about not focussing on the technical ins and outs of how they
conduct
>the survey/poll and take it for what it is. It's one of the worlds
largest
>hardware companies taking an opportunity to listen to us.
They're not! they are asking you which one you want them to sell you!
Correct. I agree. If they sell $DISTRO that's a good thing isn't it? I am a
"glass half full" kinda guy, clearly you're not.
Hey that was not a derogatory statement with regards unemployment,
I'm
on loads of lists I choose not to post to most of them. The point I
was making is I have seen it over and over again where individuals do
not have two halfpenny's to rub together so will not be buying a Dell
machine anytime soon.
I fail to see how this is relavent. You are talking about a part of the
population who are not and will not be Dells customer.
But thats exactly what they do? Here at work We/I am A Dell reseller
we sell tonnes of them however the Dell engineer (We are not supposed
to fix them) practically lives here, he walks in says hello and walks
straight out to our workshop! Oh and thats mostly brand new , just
delivered, machines by the way.
Exactly my point. They can't do this for desktops where the margins are so
slim, and the customers so fickle. Customers will walk if they get a crap
level of service.
I wouldn't had said it was inaccurate, true you are correct that
their
biggest market is the home user but this is a business we are talking
about who offer predominantly proprietory Linux releases yes there is
a knock on effect that you could wipe it and stick on opensuse instead
of sled but then whats the point of that you might as well buy an MS
machine and dual boot.
Proprietary Linux releases. What are you on about? Surely you mean
commercial distributions like RedHat and Suse?
>Schools buy Dell kit too. Imagine a school buying rooms of Dell
PCs
>pre-installed with Linux.
But Alan that will NOT happen not in the way you think can you imagine
the IT teacher of a state run school putting a request in to central
purchasing for a Dell machine that has no MS on it?
How will we ever know if the vendors don't sell them?
I think we are discussing two separate items here.
I am asserting that it is a good thing to have this survey because it (and
the potential that they start selling Linux based kit) raises awareness of
Linux and may well result in Linux becoming more widely adopted in the
non-server space.
You seem to be arguing that you wont buy it and you dont know anyone who
would?
The 'Red Tape'
boys will have a fit suppose that IT guy leaves? what guarantee do
they have of getting another teacher who knows Linux?
Significantly higher if it's possible for a Teacher to buy a PC off the
shelf from a main hardware vendor like Dell, with Linux pre-installed don't
you think?
so that kit will
sit in the corner because the teacher cant use it and sure as eggs are
eggs he is not gonna let students use it and show him or her up after
all THEY are there to teach not learn.
That's a very specific personality issue which Dell and Linux can't help
them with. The community can though.
Large numbers of Linux community members do their best to get Linux known
and out there. With large companies adopting, and large vendors selling
Linux that makes "our" job a hell of a lot easier.
I suppose I've blotted my copy book with you know?
You did that ages ago ;)
I'm afraid I tend
to defend my opinions otherwise whats the point of saying something.
Fair enough.
Cheers,
Al.
7019
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5 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
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Alan Pope -
Dick Turpin -
Kevanf1 -
stuart bell