11:12 a.m.
p.s. Sorry to those on the trips@ mailing list for my test messages,
it'll make sense if you read this!
Lo All,
I've occasionally noticed that people who reply to messages I've sent
into one of the lists... are replying directly to me rather than the list.
I don't always spot it... but on those occasions where I have, I usually
let them know and they re-post their message on the list (various
people, not targeting anyone particular!).
I don't think people have intentionally sought to just reply to me... if
you were though, keep it on the lists where possible... it'll encourage
more use of them :)
I've managed to isolate at least 9 messages (let me know if you want a
list of them) that were probably meant for the mailing list but came to
me instead (which I never noticed at the time and were not resent by the
original sender)... so they've now been imported into the archives with
all the other messages. Mostly so these conversations now make sense if
you ever browse them online!
Where this has been accidental though I've been research the possible
reasons why...
*Short version: *Use a "Reply List" button (or similar name, if you have
one), but failing that... using the "Reply All" button should work too.
*---
*
*Long version... (read on... especially if you know about e-mail headers!)*
I don't seem to be affected by this as much due to a user interface
difference in my Thunderbird mail client. When I reply to messages,
I've instinctively always been been drawn to using the "Reply List"
button (which appears where the "Reply All" button would normally be)
next to the normal "Reply" button. Thunderbird seems to show this
button because it knows (due to the RFC2369 List-* headers) that it is a
mailing list.
If you don't use Thunderbird it'd be helpful to know if your mail client
does something similar, maybe people on Gmail may know if that does also?
This does mean though... that those who just hit "Reply" (likely having
no other choice, not even "Reply All") need to check if their mail
client filled in the "To:" field with the original senders e-mail
address or the list address, and manually change it if needed. But
generally I'd say these days most people at least have a "Reply All"
button which should work just as well.
I find in Thunderbird that if I use "Reply" and not "Reply List" that
it
always replies directly (and not via the list)... unless I'm replying to
myself via the list, then it realises you likely don't want to reply to
yourself and uses the list address instead!
Looking back (before the relaunch in August) when the old
staffslug(a)staffslug.org.uk mailing list ran on the older Mailman 2...
things (in terms of the From: address and headers, etc...) were set up
in exactly the same way as they are now. So not sure how much of an
issue it was back then, I never heard of it being a problem back then.
However looking at the way "Shropshire LUG" does it... incoming messages
from the mailing list show up as...
From: Steven Madox via Shropshire <shropshire(a)mailman.lug.org.uk>
Subject: [Shropshire] Whatever
To: shropshire(a)mailman.lug.org.uk
CC: s.maddox(a)lantizia.me.uk
So when hitting reply... it goes to the list, and instead the original
senders e-mail has been clumsily put into the CC section instead
(although they don't get two copies of the message) - mostly so you can
just see who really sent it.
Mailman 3 it seems (via the Postorious web UI) has a "Reply goes to
list" configuration setting, which although doesn't do what I've seen on
Shrops LUG - mangles things in other ways.
It has 4 choices (see this
<https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/docs/reply-...
bit of their docs, which strongly recommends you never touch it!)...
here they are along with my findings as to what they do...
* *No munging *(default)
/_When Tested:_/ Does exactly nothing, which is exactly the
intention in this case. Leaving the Reply-To header (if one exists)
alone. This does mean though people without RFC2369 compliant mail
clients (or just those without a 'Reply List' or 'Reply All' option)
need to type in the mailing list address manually in to "To:" field
(or copy it from the "To:" that can be found in the original message).
* *Reply goes to list*
/_When Tested:_/ If you're not using Thunderbird, this likely does
exactly what it's meant to, which is add a 'Reply-To' header so if
you hit "Reply" it'll go to the list. But it seems Thunderbird
changed something a while back to ignore the 'Reply-To' header when
using "Reply" if the message is considered to be from a mailing
list! I suppose because they really want you to use that 'Reply
List' button?
* _*Explicit Reply-to header set*_
/_When Tested:_/ This seems to add a completely empty 'Reply-To'
header, no idea why._*
*_
* _*Explicit Reply-to set; no Cc added*_*/_
_/*/_When Tested:_/ Seems to do exactly the same as the last one.
No idea why this one is 'no Cc added' as none of the above 3
starting adding in Cc's anyway!
The first option 'No munging' is the one that is strongly recommended by
the Mailman 3 team.
Anyone got any thoughts on this?
The more I wrote up this e-mail I find myself just wanting to leave it
as it is! Trust me this e-mail was going to be way longer :S
--
Steven Maddox
Lantizia
3:51 p.m.
Ok, I'm trying this with a 'reply all' in Gmail. I suspect my replies are
going straight to you, Steven otherwise. You might like to have a look at
how the Wolves LUG is set up regarding replies s all my 'reply' posts go
direct to the LUG and always have (also using the same e-mail address
inGmail).
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 at 11:12, Steven Maddox <s.maddox(a)lantizia.me.uk> wrote:
p.s. Sorry to those on the trips@ mailing list for my test messages,
it'll make sense if you read this!
Lo All,
I've occasionally noticed that people who reply to messages I've sent into
one of the lists... are replying directly to me rather than the list.
I don't always spot it... but on those occasions where I have, I usually
let them know and they re-post their message on the list (various people,
not targeting anyone particular!).
I don't think people have intentionally sought to just reply to me... if
you were though, keep it on the lists where possible... it'll encourage
more use of them :)
I've managed to isolate at least 9 messages (let me know if you want a
list of them) that were probably meant for the mailing list but came to me
instead (which I never noticed at the time and were not resent by the
original sender)... so they've now been imported into the archives with all
the other messages. Mostly so these conversations now make sense if you
ever browse them online!
Where this has been accidental though I've been research the possible
reasons why...
*Short version: *Use a "Reply List" button (or similar name, if you have
one), but failing that... using the "Reply All" button should work too.
*--- *
*Long version... (read on... especially if you know about e-mail headers!)*
I don't seem to be affected by this as much due to a user interface
difference in my Thunderbird mail client. When I reply to messages, I've
instinctively always been been drawn to using the "Reply List" button
(which appears where the "Reply All" button would normally be) next to the
normal "Reply" button. Thunderbird seems to show this button because it
knows (due to the RFC2369 List-* headers) that it is a mailing list.
If you don't use Thunderbird it'd be helpful to know if your mail client
does something similar, maybe people on Gmail may know if that does also?
This does mean though... that those who just hit "Reply" (likely having no
other choice, not even "Reply All") need to check if their mail client
filled in the "To:" field with the original senders e-mail address or the
list address, and manually change it if needed. But generally I'd say
these days most people at least have a "Reply All" button which should work
just as well.
I find in Thunderbird that if I use "Reply" and not "Reply List" that
it
always replies directly (and not via the list)... unless I'm replying to
myself via the list, then it realises you likely don't want to reply to
yourself and uses the list address instead!
Looking back (before the relaunch in August) when the old
staffslug(a)staffslug.org.uk mailing list ran on the older Mailman 2...
things (in terms of the From: address and headers, etc...) were set up in
exactly the same way as they are now. So not sure how much of an issue it
was back then, I never heard of it being a problem back then.
However looking at the way "Shropshire LUG" does it... incoming messages
from the mailing list show up as...
From: Steven Madox via Shropshire <shropshire(a)mailman.lug.org.uk>
<shropshire(a)mailman.lug.org.uk>
Subject: [Shropshire] Whatever
To: shropshire(a)mailman.lug.org.uk
CC: s.maddox(a)lantizia.me.uk
So when hitting reply... it goes to the list, and instead the original
senders e-mail has been clumsily put into the CC section instead (although
they don't get two copies of the message) - mostly so you can just see who
really sent it.
Mailman 3 it seems (via the Postorious web UI) has a "Reply goes to list"
configuration setting, which although doesn't do what I've seen on Shrops
LUG - mangles things in other ways.
It has 4 choices (see this
<https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/docs/reply-...
bit of their docs, which strongly recommends you never touch it!)... here
they are along with my findings as to what they do...
- *No munging *(default)
*When Tested:* Does exactly nothing, which is exactly the intention in
this case. Leaving the Reply-To header (if one exists) alone. This does
mean though people without RFC2369 compliant mail clients (or just those
without a 'Reply List' or 'Reply All' option) need to type in the
mailing
list address manually in to "To:" field (or copy it from the "To:"
that can
be found in the original message).
- *Reply goes to list*
*When Tested:* If you're not using Thunderbird, this likely does
exactly what it's meant to, which is add a 'Reply-To' header so if you
hit
"Reply" it'll go to the list. But it seems Thunderbird changed
something a
while back to ignore the 'Reply-To' header when using "Reply" if
the
message is considered to be from a mailing list! I suppose because they
really want you to use that 'Reply List' button?
- *Explicit Reply-to header set*
*When Tested:* This seems to add a completely empty 'Reply-To' header,
no idea why.
- *Explicit Reply-to set; no Cc added*
*When Tested:* Seems to do exactly the same as the last one. No idea why
this one is 'no Cc added' as none of the above 3 starting adding in Cc's
anyway!
The first option 'No munging' is the one that is strongly recommended by
the Mailman 3 team.
Anyone got any thoughts on this?
The more I wrote up this e-mail I find myself just wanting to leave it as
it is! Trust me this e-mail was going to be way longer :S
--
Steven Maddox
Lantizia
_______________________________________________
General mailing list -- general(a)lists.staffslug.org.uk
To unsubscribe send an email to general-leave(a)lists.staffslug.org.uk
--
==============================================
Kevan
Staffordshire
4:01 p.m.
Yeah a Reply-All gets me two copies, one from you directly and one
from the list.
No way around that really unless Gmail decided to add a 'Reply List'
button.
I've been on the WolvesLUG mailing list already, I'll have a browse
through past messages.
I get the impression though that the way we're doing it now is a) the
way we always have and b) the way the mailman advocates it should be done.
Steven Maddox
Lantizia
On 14/11/2019 15:51, Kevanf1 wrote:
> Ok, I'm trying this with a 'reply all' in Gmail. I suspect my replies
> are going straight to you, Steven otherwise. You might like to have a
> look at how the Wolves LUG is set up regarding replies s all my 'reply'
> posts go direct to the LUG and always have (also using the same e-mail
> address inGmail).
>
> On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 at 11:12, Steven Maddox <s.maddox(a)lantizia.me.uk
> <mailto:s.maddox@lantizia.me.uk>> wrote:
>
> p.s. Sorry to those on the trips@ mailing list for my test messages,
> it'll make sense if you read this!
>
> Lo All,
>
> I've occasionally noticed that people who reply to messages I've
> sent into one of the lists... are replying directly to me rather
> than the list.
> I don't always spot it... but on those occasions where I have, I
> usually let them know and they re-post their message on the list
> (various people, not targeting anyone particular!).
>
> I don't think people have intentionally sought to just reply to
> me... if you were though, keep it on the lists where possible...
> it'll encourage more use of them :)
>
> I've managed to isolate at least 9 messages (let me know if you want
> a list of them) that were probably meant for the mailing list but
> came to me instead (which I never noticed at the time and were not
> resent by the original sender)... so they've now been imported into
> the archives with all the other messages. Mostly so these
> conversations now make sense if you ever browse them online!
>
> Where this has been accidental though I've been research the
> possible reasons why...
>
> *Short version: *Use a "Reply List" button (or similar name, if you
> have one), but failing that... using the "Reply All" button should
> work too.
>
> *---
> *
>
> *Long version... (read on... especially if you know about e-mail
> headers!)*
>
> I don't seem to be affected by this as much due to a user interface
> difference in my Thunderbird mail client. When I reply to messages,
> I've instinctively always been been drawn to using the "Reply
List"
> button (which appears where the "Reply All" button would normally
> be) next to the normal "Reply" button. Thunderbird seems to show
> this button because it knows (due to the RFC2369 List-* headers)
> that it is a mailing list.
>
> If you don't use Thunderbird it'd be helpful to know if your mail
> client does something similar, maybe people on Gmail may know if
> that does also?
>
> This does mean though... that those who just hit "Reply" (likely
> having no other choice, not even "Reply All") need to check if their
> mail client filled in the "To:" field with the original senders
> e-mail address or the list address, and manually change it if
> needed. But generally I'd say these days most people at least have
> a "Reply All" button which should work just as well.
>
> I find in Thunderbird that if I use "Reply" and not "Reply
List"
> that it always replies directly (and not via the list)... unless I'm
> replying to myself via the list, then it realises you likely don't
> want to reply to yourself and uses the list address instead!
>
> Looking back (before the relaunch in August) when the old
> staffslug(a)staffslug.org.uk <mailto:staffslug@staffslug.org.uk>
> mailing list ran on the older Mailman 2... things (in terms of the
> From: address and headers, etc...) were set up in exactly the same
> way as they are now. So not sure how much of an issue it was back
> then, I never heard of it being a problem back then.
>
> However looking at the way "Shropshire LUG" does it... incoming
> messages from the mailing list show up as...
>
> From: Steven Madox via Shropshire <shropshire(a)mailman.lug.org.uk>
> <mailto:shropshire@mailman.lug.org.uk>
> Subject: [Shropshire] Whatever
> To: shropshire(a)mailman.lug.org.uk <mailto:shropshire@mailman.lug.org.uk>
> CC: s.maddox(a)lantizia.me.uk <mailto:s.maddox@lantizia.me.uk>
>
> So when hitting reply... it goes to the list, and instead the
> original senders e-mail has been clumsily put into the CC section
> instead (although they don't get two copies of the message) - mostly
> so you can just see who really sent it.
>
> Mailman 3 it seems (via the Postorious web UI) has a "Reply goes to
> list" configuration setting, which although doesn't do what I've
> seen on Shrops LUG - mangles things in other ways.
> It has 4 choices (see this
>
<https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/docs/reply-...
> bit of their docs, which strongly recommends you never touch it!)...
> here they are along with my findings as to what they do...
>
> * *No munging *(default)
> /_When Tested:_/ Does exactly nothing, which is exactly the
> intention in this case. Leaving the Reply-To header (if one
> exists) alone. This does mean though people without RFC2369
> compliant mail clients (or just those without a 'Reply List' or
> 'Reply All' option) need to type in the mailing list address
> manually in to "To:" field (or copy it from the "To:"
that can
> be found in the original message).
> * *Reply goes to list*
> /_When Tested:_/ If you're not using Thunderbird, this likely
> does exactly what it's meant to, which is add a 'Reply-To'
> header so if you hit "Reply" it'll go to the list. But it
seems
> Thunderbird changed something a while back to ignore the
> 'Reply-To' header when using "Reply" if the message is
> considered to be from a mailing list! I suppose because they
> really want you to use that 'Reply List' button?
> * _*Explicit Reply-to header set*_
> /_When Tested:_/ This seems to add a completely empty 'Reply-To'
> header, no idea why._*
> *_
> * _*Explicit Reply-to set; no Cc added*_*/_
> _/*/_When Tested:_/ Seems to do exactly the same as the last
> one. No idea why this one is 'no Cc added' as none of the above
> 3 starting adding in Cc's anyway!
>
> The first option 'No munging' is the one that is strongly
> recommended by the Mailman 3 team.
>
> Anyone got any thoughts on this?
>
> The more I wrote up this e-mail I find myself just wanting to leave
> it as it is! Trust me this e-mail was going to be way longer :S
>
> --
> Steven Maddox
> Lantizia
>
> _______________________________________________
> General mailing list -- general(a)lists.staffslug.org.uk
> <mailto:general@lists.staffslug.org.uk>
> To unsubscribe send an email to general-leave(a)lists.staffslug.org.uk
> <mailto:general-leave@lists.staffslug.org.uk>
>
>
>
> --
> ==============================================
>
> Kevan
>
> Staffordshire
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General mailing list -- general(a)lists.staffslug.org.uk
> To unsubscribe send an email to general-leave(a)lists.staffslug.org.uk
>
4:23 p.m.
Now for this reply I have had to specifically remove your e-mail address
(Steven) and then explicitly dd the staffslug address in its place. In
other words a mess, a rigmarole :( I don't have to do this with any of the
other lists i am a member of (about 3 others and all with the Gmail address
using Gmail but not all LUGs). I'll see if I can find out anything from
the other list owners as to set up.
On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 at 16:01, Steven Maddox <s.maddox(a)lantizia.me.uk> wrote:
Yeah a Reply-All gets me two copies, one from you directly and one
from the list.
No way around that really unless Gmail decided to add a 'Reply List'
button.
I've been on the WolvesLUG mailing list already, I'll have a browse
through past messages.
I get the impression though that the way we're doing it now is a) the
way we always have and b) the way the mailman advocates it should be
done.
Steven Maddox
Lantizia
On 14/11/2019 15:51, Kevanf1 wrote:
> Ok, I'm trying this with a 'reply all' in Gmail. I suspect my replies
> are going straight to you, Steven otherwise. You might like to have a
> look at how the Wolves LUG is set up regarding replies s all my 'reply'
> posts go direct to the LUG and always have (also using the same e-mail
> address inGmail).
>
> On Thu, 14 Nov 2019 at 11:12, Steven Maddox <s.maddox(a)lantizia.me.uk
> <mailto:s.maddox@lantizia.me.uk>> wrote:
>
> p.s. Sorry to those on the trips@ mailing list for my test messages,
> it'll make sense if you read this!
>
> Lo All,
>
> I've occasionally noticed that people who reply to messages I've
> sent into one of the lists... are replying directly to me rather
> than the list.
> I don't always spot it... but on those occasions where I have, I
> usually let them know and they re-post their message on the list
> (various people, not targeting anyone particular!).
>
> I don't think people have intentionally sought to just reply to
> me... if you were though, keep it on the lists where possible...
> it'll encourage more use of them :)
>
> I've managed to isolate at least 9 messages (let me know if you want
> a list of them) that were probably meant for the mailing list but
> came to me instead (which I never noticed at the time and were not
> resent by the original sender)... so they've now been imported into
> the archives with all the other messages. Mostly so these
> conversations now make sense if you ever browse them online!
>
> Where this has been accidental though I've been research the
> possible reasons why...
>
> *Short version: *Use a "Reply List" button (or similar name, if you
> have one), but failing that... using the "Reply All" button should
> work too.
>
> *---
> *
>
> *Long version... (read on... especially if you know about e-mail
> headers!)*
>
> I don't seem to be affected by this as much due to a user interface
> difference in my Thunderbird mail client. When I reply to messages,
> I've instinctively always been been drawn to using the "Reply
List"
> button (which appears where the "Reply All" button would normally
> be) next to the normal "Reply" button. Thunderbird seems to show
> this button because it knows (due to the RFC2369 List-* headers)
> that it is a mailing list.
>
> If you don't use Thunderbird it'd be helpful to know if your mail
> client does something similar, maybe people on Gmail may know if
> that does also?
>
> This does mean though... that those who just hit "Reply" (likely
> having no other choice, not even "Reply All") need to check if their
> mail client filled in the "To:" field with the original senders
> e-mail address or the list address, and manually change it if
> needed. But generally I'd say these days most people at least have
> a "Reply All" button which should work just as well.
>
> I find in Thunderbird that if I use "Reply" and not "Reply
List"
> that it always replies directly (and not via the list)... unless I'm
> replying to myself via the list, then it realises you likely don't
> want to reply to yourself and uses the list address instead!
>
> Looking back (before the relaunch in August) when the old
> staffslug(a)staffslug.org.uk <mailto:staffslug@staffslug.org.uk>
> mailing list ran on the older Mailman 2... things (in terms of the
> From: address and headers, etc...) were set up in exactly the same
> way as they are now. So not sure how much of an issue it was back
> then, I never heard of it being a problem back then.
>
> However looking at the way "Shropshire LUG" does it... incoming
> messages from the mailing list show up as...
>
> From: Steven Madox via Shropshire <shropshire(a)mailman.lug.org.uk>
> <mailto:shropshire@mailman.lug.org.uk>
> Subject: [Shropshire] Whatever
> To: shropshire(a)mailman.lug.org.uk <mailto:
shropshire(a)mailman.lug.org.uk>
> CC: s.maddox(a)lantizia.me.uk <mailto:s.maddox@lantizia.me.uk>
>
> So when hitting reply... it goes to the list, and instead the
> original senders e-mail has been clumsily put into the CC section
> instead (although they don't get two copies of the message) - mostly
> so you can just see who really sent it.
>
> Mailman 3 it seems (via the Postorious web UI) has a "Reply goes to
> list" configuration setting, which although doesn't do what I've
> seen on Shrops LUG - mangles things in other ways.
> It has 4 choices (see this
> <
https://mailman.readthedocs.io/en/latest/src/mailman/handlers/docs/reply-...
>
> bit of their docs, which strongly recommends you never touch it!)...
> here they are along with my findings as to what they do...
>
> * *No munging *(default)
> /_When Tested:_/ Does exactly nothing, which is exactly the
> intention in this case. Leaving the Reply-To header (if one
> exists) alone. This does mean though people without RFC2369
> compliant mail clients (or just those without a 'Reply List' or
> 'Reply All' option) need to type in the mailing list address
> manually in to "To:" field (or copy it from the "To:"
that can
> be found in the original message).
> * *Reply goes to list*
> /_When Tested:_/ If you're not using Thunderbird, this likely
> does exactly what it's meant to, which is add a 'Reply-To'
> header so if you hit "Reply" it'll go to the list. But it
seems
> Thunderbird changed something a while back to ignore the
> 'Reply-To' header when using "Reply" if the message is
> considered to be from a mailing list! I suppose because they
> really want you to use that 'Reply List' button?
> * _*Explicit Reply-to header set*_
> /_When Tested:_/ This seems to add a completely empty 'Reply-To'
> header, no idea why._*
> *_
> * _*Explicit Reply-to set; no Cc added*_*/_
> _/*/_When Tested:_/ Seems to do exactly the same as the last
> one. No idea why this one is 'no Cc added' as none of the above
> 3 starting adding in Cc's anyway!
>
> The first option 'No munging' is the one that is strongly
> recommended by the Mailman 3 team.
>
> Anyone got any thoughts on this?
>
> The more I wrote up this e-mail I find myself just wanting to leave
> it as it is! Trust me this e-mail was going to be way longer :S
>
> --
> Steven Maddox
> Lantizia
>
> _______________________________________________
> General mailing list -- general(a)lists.staffslug.org.uk
> <mailto:general@lists.staffslug.org.uk>
> To unsubscribe send an email to general-leave(a)lists.staffslug.org.uk
> <mailto:general-leave@lists.staffslug.org.uk>
>
>
>
> --
> ==============================================
>
> Kevan
>
> Staffordshire
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> General mailing list -- general(a)lists.staffslug.org.uk
> To unsubscribe send an email to general-leave(a)lists.staffslug.org.uk
>
_______________________________________________
General mailing list -- general(a)lists.staffslug.org.uk
To unsubscribe send an email to general-leave(a)lists.staffslug.org.uk
--
==============================================
Kevan
Staffordshire
9:28 p.m.
Everyday is a schoolday.
Just learned that I can use 'L' in mutt to reply to list.
And it seems to work (this email was generated using it).
:)
--
Chris Williams
aka BinGOs
PGP ID 0x4658671F
http://www.gumbynet.org.uk
==========================
9:31 p.m.
Hi Steven,
On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 11:12:10AM +0000, Steven Maddox wrote:
*Short version: *Use a "Reply List" button (or similar
name, if you have
one), but failing that... using the "Reply All" button should work too.
My perception is that a lot of mainstream mail clients don't support
the list headers so don't present a "list reply" option, even though
they have had decades to do so.
People naturally take the course of least effort and just hit reply.
If you don't use Thunderbird it'd be helpful to know if your
mail client
does something similar, maybe people on Gmail may know if that does also?
I use Mutt and it does do the right thing, as do most of the
actively-developed open source ones.
Looking back (before the relaunch in August) when the old
staffslug(a)staffslug.org.uk mailing list ran on the older Mailman 2...
things (in terms of the From: address and headers, etc...) were set up
in exactly the same way as they are now. So not sure how much of an
issue it was back then, I never heard of it being a problem back then.
I run some mailing lists (using Mailman 2.x still at the moment) and
one thing I do is run a "-replyto" version of each list. That's a
list with the same name but with -replyto stuck on the end; it's
subscribed to the real list so it gets the same posts, but
crucially it adds a reply-to header when passing them along to its
own recipients.
That way, people with sensible mail clients can subscribe to the
proper list, as nature intended, but those with inferior mail
clients can subscribe to the -replyto version.
However looking at the way "Shropshire LUG" does it...
incoming messages
from the mailing list show up as...
From: Steven Madox via Shropshire <shropshire(a)mailman.lug.org.uk>
Subject: [Shropshire] Whatever
To: shropshire(a)mailman.lug.org.uk
CC: s.maddox(a)lantizia.me.uk
So when hitting reply... it goes to the list, and instead the original
senders e-mail has been clumsily put into the CC section instead
(although they don't get two copies of the message) - mostly so you can
just see who really sent it.
Thing is, this almost certainly isn't done in order to solve the
"where replies go" problem. It's most likely done to solve the "list
mails fail DKIM", because any mailing list software that tried to
send email pretending to be lantizia.me.uk is going to break the
DKIM signatures on there.
If you at lantizia.me.uk had set a strict DMARC policy of reject or
quarantine then multiple recipient systems would reject the email
that the mailing list sends, and get themselves unsubscribed for
bounces.
Amusingly, this happened on the mailop mailing list recently where
over 100 subscribers were unsubscribed in one day.
By sending email as the list itself, it doesn't break signatures or
SPF and the sending IP and domnain reputation are aligned with the
list instead of trying to pretend they are the poster.
The first option 'No munging' is the one that is strongly
recommended by
the Mailman 3 team.
It's my preference as well, but I do suspect that the majority of
email users in the world are using mail clients that don't support
this.
It's tempting to just add a reply-to back to the list but then an
accidental personal reply can end up back on the list, and that
seems far worse to me than mail that was intended for the list
ending up as a personal reply.
I'd rather people picked better mail clients, but I make the
-replyto lists available for those who can't/won't, at their own
risk.
Email is dying anyway, will soon be entirely defined by the 4
different megacorps that own 99.9% of the mailboxes in the world,
and we should all just switch to Discourse. Only half joking :(
Cheers,
Andy
--
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
11:59 a.m.
Lo,
Yeah even if there is a 'Reply List'-equivalent function for any
particular mail client, it'd still rely on people using it - or even
knowing about it!
I'm not keen on two versions of each mailing list though. For people
who are new to mailing lists (in this form anyway... a lot of people I
talk to... when they think 'mailing lists'... only think about Sales
e-mails they need to unsubscribe from!)... they find it complicated/new
enough already, I guess that'll be what we get after decades of people
being used to Web Forums instead. Thankfully they can always just use
the web-interface of HyperKitty to start new threads and respond now :)
Plus (as I mentioned before) it wouldn't help Thunderbird users using
'Reply' anyway (see the 3rd entry on this page...
https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/thunderbird/50.0beta/releasenotes/ ).
It'd be interesting to know if Thunderbird was the only mail client to
make a change like this.
I'd considered SPF in my mind when I was thinking about *why* Shrops LUG
had chosen to do it that way... but yeah it'd scupper DKIM too. I'm
tempted to see if there are mailman3 options (not the config option
already spoke about) to do things the Shrops LUG way. At least then
SPF/DKIM would work fine if people have it set *and* the 'Reply'
function would work (Thunderbird or not).
If we were to do it that way... I'm not as worried about people
accidentally sending in private messages, mostly because there would be
3 visual clues... 1) the "Foo Bar via XXX List" name... 2) the actual
address is a @lists.domain.com... 3) and finally the CC would be there
to hint at the real address they should send to.
E-mail isn't dying! It's the new letter! And that survived (past
tense) just fine :P I do wish these mega-corps would hurry up (not in
their interest at the moment, I know) and come together on some
federated standard for instant messaging at least (e.g. XMPP or other).
BTW, I'm still fully intending to make the mailing list available via
NNTP (as well as normal e-mail and web interface). Seems this can be
done with inn2, but I need to find the time to research it a bit more.
If anyone has experience tying inn2 and mailman together let me know.
More old school the better :)
Steven Maddox
Lantizia
On 14/11/2019 21:31, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hi Steven,
>
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 11:12:10AM +0000, Steven Maddox wrote:
>> *Short version: *Use a "Reply List" button (or similar name, if you
have
>> one), but failing that... using the "Reply All" button should work
too.
>
> My perception is that a lot of mainstream mail clients don't support
> the list headers so don't present a "list reply" option, even though
> they have had decades to do so.
>
> People naturally take the course of least effort and just hit reply.
>
>> If you don't use Thunderbird it'd be helpful to know if your mail client
>> does something similar, maybe people on Gmail may know if that does also?
>
> I use Mutt and it does do the right thing, as do most of the
> actively-developed open source ones.
>
>> Looking back (before the relaunch in August) when the old
>> staffslug(a)staffslug.org.uk mailing list ran on the older Mailman 2...
>> things (in terms of the From: address and headers, etc...) were set up
>> in exactly the same way as they are now. So not sure how much of an
>> issue it was back then, I never heard of it being a problem back then.
>
> I run some mailing lists (using Mailman 2.x still at the moment) and
> one thing I do is run a "-replyto" version of each list. That's a
> list with the same name but with -replyto stuck on the end; it's
> subscribed to the real list so it gets the same posts, but
> crucially it adds a reply-to header when passing them along to its
> own recipients.
>
> That way, people with sensible mail clients can subscribe to the
> proper list, as nature intended, but those with inferior mail
> clients can subscribe to the -replyto version.
>
>> However looking at the way "Shropshire LUG" does it... incoming
messages
>> from the mailing list show up as...
>>
>> From: Steven Madox via Shropshire <shropshire(a)mailman.lug.org.uk>
>> Subject: [Shropshire] Whatever
>> To: shropshire(a)mailman.lug.org.uk
>> CC: s.maddox(a)lantizia.me.uk
>>
>> So when hitting reply... it goes to the list, and instead the original
>> senders e-mail has been clumsily put into the CC section instead
>> (although they don't get two copies of the message) - mostly so you can
>> just see who really sent it.
>
> Thing is, this almost certainly isn't done in order to solve the
> "where replies go" problem. It's most likely done to solve the
"list
> mails fail DKIM", because any mailing list software that tried to
> send email pretending to be lantizia.me.uk is going to break the
> DKIM signatures on there.
>
> If you at lantizia.me.uk had set a strict DMARC policy of reject or
> quarantine then multiple recipient systems would reject the email
> that the mailing list sends, and get themselves unsubscribed for
> bounces.
>
> Amusingly, this happened on the mailop mailing list recently where
> over 100 subscribers were unsubscribed in one day.
>
> By sending email as the list itself, it doesn't break signatures or
> SPF and the sending IP and domnain reputation are aligned with the
> list instead of trying to pretend they are the poster.
>
>> The first option 'No munging' is the one that is strongly recommended by
>> the Mailman 3 team.
>
> It's my preference as well, but I do suspect that the majority of
> email users in the world are using mail clients that don't support
> this.
>
> It's tempting to just add a reply-to back to the list but then an
> accidental personal reply can end up back on the list, and that
> seems far worse to me than mail that was intended for the list
> ending up as a personal reply.
>
> I'd rather people picked better mail clients, but I make the
> -replyto lists available for those who can't/won't, at their own
> risk.
>
> Email is dying anyway, will soon be entirely defined by the 4
> different megacorps that own 99.9% of the mailboxes in the world,
> and we should all just switch to Discourse. Only half joking :(
>
> Cheers,
> Andy
>
9:41 a.m.
Fixed :)
Any message that you reply to, that has been received from this point
onwards, will go to the list as I've fixed the headers better now (no
matter which mail client you use).
**Longer version**:
The lists now behaves in the way I've witnessed on neighbouring LUGs
where the From: is always the list address and the CC: is set to the
original sender (this is for reference, if you want to e-mail them
directly - but thankfully the sender doesn't get 2 emails, just 1!).
This does mean DMARC (DKIM/SPF) isn't an issue any more (although I hear
RFC 8617 was working to fix that anyway) and it also resolves the issue
with people just hitting Reply as well, bonus!
p.s. I realised later on, that the older 'staffslug(a)staffslug.org.uk'
list *did* have Reply-To: set... but it's just that I never noticed
because of how odd Thunderbird treats list messages :S
Steven Maddox
Lantizia
On 15/11/2019 11:59, Steven Maddox wrote:
> Lo,
>
> Yeah even if there is a 'Reply List'-equivalent function for any
> particular mail client, it'd still rely on people using it - or even
> knowing about it!
>
> I'm not keen on two versions of each mailing list though. For people
> who are new to mailing lists (in this form anyway... a lot of people I
> talk to... when they think 'mailing lists'... only think about Sales
> e-mails they need to unsubscribe from!)... they find it complicated/new
> enough already, I guess that'll be what we get after decades of people
> being used to Web Forums instead. Thankfully they can always just use
> the web-interface of HyperKitty to start new threads and respond now :)
>
> Plus (as I mentioned before) it wouldn't help Thunderbird users using
> 'Reply' anyway (see the 3rd entry on this page...
> https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/thunderbird/50.0beta/releasenotes/ ).
> It'd be interesting to know if Thunderbird was the only mail client to
> make a change like this.
>
> I'd considered SPF in my mind when I was thinking about *why* Shrops LUG
> had chosen to do it that way... but yeah it'd scupper DKIM too. I'm
> tempted to see if there are mailman3 options (not the config option
> already spoke about) to do things the Shrops LUG way. At least then
> SPF/DKIM would work fine if people have it set *and* the 'Reply'
> function would work (Thunderbird or not).
>
> If we were to do it that way... I'm not as worried about people
> accidentally sending in private messages, mostly because there would be
> 3 visual clues... 1) the "Foo Bar via XXX List" name... 2) the actual
> address is a @lists.domain.com... 3) and finally the CC would be there
> to hint at the real address they should send to.
>
> E-mail isn't dying! It's the new letter! And that survived (past
> tense) just fine :P I do wish these mega-corps would hurry up (not in
> their interest at the moment, I know) and come together on some
> federated standard for instant messaging at least (e.g. XMPP or other).
>
> BTW, I'm still fully intending to make the mailing list available via
> NNTP (as well as normal e-mail and web interface). Seems this can be
> done with inn2, but I need to find the time to research it a bit more.
> If anyone has experience tying inn2 and mailman together let me know.
>
> More old school the better :)
>
> Steven Maddox
> Lantizia
>
> On 14/11/2019 21:31, Andy Smith wrote:
>> Hi Steven,
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 11:12:10AM +0000, Steven Maddox wrote:
>>> *Short version: *Use a "Reply List" button (or similar name, if you
have
>>> one), but failing that... using the "Reply All" button should work
too.
>>
>> My perception is that a lot of mainstream mail clients don't support
>> the list headers so don't present a "list reply" option, even
though
>> they have had decades to do so.
>>
>> People naturally take the course of least effort and just hit reply.
>>
>>> If you don't use Thunderbird it'd be helpful to know if your mail
client
>>> does something similar, maybe people on Gmail may know if that does also?
>>
>> I use Mutt and it does do the right thing, as do most of the
>> actively-developed open source ones.
>>
>>> Looking back (before the relaunch in August) when the old
>>> staffslug(a)staffslug.org.uk mailing list ran on the older Mailman 2...
>>> things (in terms of the From: address and headers, etc...) were set up
>>> in exactly the same way as they are now. So not sure how much of an
>>> issue it was back then, I never heard of it being a problem back then.
>>
>> I run some mailing lists (using Mailman 2.x still at the moment) and
>> one thing I do is run a "-replyto" version of each list. That's a
>> list with the same name but with -replyto stuck on the end; it's
>> subscribed to the real list so it gets the same posts, but
>> crucially it adds a reply-to header when passing them along to its
>> own recipients.
>>
>> That way, people with sensible mail clients can subscribe to the
>> proper list, as nature intended, but those with inferior mail
>> clients can subscribe to the -replyto version.
>>
>>> However looking at the way "Shropshire LUG" does it... incoming
messages
>>> from the mailing list show up as...
>>>
>>> From: Steven Madox via Shropshire <shropshire(a)mailman.lug.org.uk>
>>> Subject: [Shropshire] Whatever
>>> To: shropshire(a)mailman.lug.org.uk
>>> CC: s.maddox(a)lantizia.me.uk
>>>
>>> So when hitting reply... it goes to the list, and instead the original
>>> senders e-mail has been clumsily put into the CC section instead
>>> (although they don't get two copies of the message) - mostly so you can
>>> just see who really sent it.
>>
>> Thing is, this almost certainly isn't done in order to solve the
>> "where replies go" problem. It's most likely done to solve the
"list
>> mails fail DKIM", because any mailing list software that tried to
>> send email pretending to be lantizia.me.uk is going to break the
>> DKIM signatures on there.
>>
>> If you at lantizia.me.uk had set a strict DMARC policy of reject or
>> quarantine then multiple recipient systems would reject the email
>> that the mailing list sends, and get themselves unsubscribed for
>> bounces.
>>
>> Amusingly, this happened on the mailop mailing list recently where
>> over 100 subscribers were unsubscribed in one day.
>>
>> By sending email as the list itself, it doesn't break signatures or
>> SPF and the sending IP and domnain reputation are aligned with the
>> list instead of trying to pretend they are the poster.
>>
>>> The first option 'No munging' is the one that is strongly recommended
by
>>> the Mailman 3 team.
>>
>> It's my preference as well, but I do suspect that the majority of
>> email users in the world are using mail clients that don't support
>> this.
>>
>> It's tempting to just add a reply-to back to the list but then an
>> accidental personal reply can end up back on the list, and that
>> seems far worse to me than mail that was intended for the list
>> ending up as a personal reply.
>>
>> I'd rather people picked better mail clients, but I make the
>> -replyto lists available for those who can't/won't, at their own
>> risk.
>>
>> Email is dying anyway, will soon be entirely defined by the 4
>> different megacorps that own 99.9% of the mailboxes in the world,
>> and we should all just switch to Discourse. Only half joking :(
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>>
> _______________________________________________
> General mailing list -- general(a)lists.staffslug.org.uk
> To unsubscribe send an email to general-leave(a)lists.staffslug.org.uk
>
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8 comments
4 participants
participants (4)
-
Andy Smith -
Chris 'BinGOs' Williams -
Kevanf1 -
Steven Maddox